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- Fate
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The Rebirth System
by Fate Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:27 pm
Alright, so the whole rebirth system has constantly been questioned by some person or another. Some people want it to go slower so that people aren't getting ridiculously strong (or whatever reason, I've never understood this side of it) while others enjoy racking them up and getting on the leaderboard.
I for one think that the quick rebirthing (Khaos mobs) was a better system than wait it out for fiesta so you can get like 30 rebirths at a time. The only real downside it seemed to me was the lack of incentives for rebirthing.
I have always had the idea to trade in 8 super rebirth rings and some wiz coins (or whatever we are calling them now) to create one non-ring msi so then it would give a long term incentive for very high count rebirths. This would force people to trade in some of that power they have every ~800 rebirths until they reach roughly 6000-7000 rebirths. That's just because trading in 240k all stats (30k * 8 ) for one 30k all stat item would lead to a short term power drop off but a long term gain.
Doing this would also allow usage of different rings for their effects even for the people that sit and grind out rebirths.
This also won't punish people that don't feel like racking up tons of rebirths but also want to participate in custom content because the stuff we have right now is all easily doable with just 8 super rebirth rings.
This could possibly lower the value in donating ass well I guess because they can get all-stat items for "free" but if a player is really willing to devote that many hours of gametime to the server I think they may deserve their non-ring msi. Also donator items are still stronger, or they should be not sure if they are or not, and are custom items so they still carry more value.
The only 2 big "issues" I could see is that the leaderboards will have like 10's of thousands of rebirths which may be a turnoff for a new player that wants to compete for that top spot, but in my own opinion this would actually attract those players that want to get high rebirth counts. I was that person at one point and when I looked for servers I looked at the leaderboard to see what the rebirth counts were looking like. I joined dchaos at first because I saw someone (yes probably you pimppi) with like 20k rebirths or something, not entirely sure what it was but it was ridiculous.
The second problem that I guess could happen is that fiesta wouldn't carry any value and no one would participate as Khaos mobs would give more than enough experience. So how about instead of giving them MORE health than other mobs we give fiesta slimes LESS health so that it's used by newer players. This will work especially well with the nerf of heaven's hammer. That way the event is still used by some players while the ones grinding out rebirths have their own place to do it in.
tl;dr consider keeping (and enhancing) the fast rebirth system to attract those rebirth junkies since it won't hurt the non-grinding players
I may have skipped something but oh well. I just woke up and felt like finally posting this.
I for one think that the quick rebirthing (Khaos mobs) was a better system than wait it out for fiesta so you can get like 30 rebirths at a time. The only real downside it seemed to me was the lack of incentives for rebirthing.
I have always had the idea to trade in 8 super rebirth rings and some wiz coins (or whatever we are calling them now) to create one non-ring msi so then it would give a long term incentive for very high count rebirths. This would force people to trade in some of that power they have every ~800 rebirths until they reach roughly 6000-7000 rebirths. That's just because trading in 240k all stats (30k * 8 ) for one 30k all stat item would lead to a short term power drop off but a long term gain.
Doing this would also allow usage of different rings for their effects even for the people that sit and grind out rebirths.
This also won't punish people that don't feel like racking up tons of rebirths but also want to participate in custom content because the stuff we have right now is all easily doable with just 8 super rebirth rings.
This could possibly lower the value in donating ass well I guess because they can get all-stat items for "free" but if a player is really willing to devote that many hours of gametime to the server I think they may deserve their non-ring msi. Also donator items are still stronger, or they should be not sure if they are or not, and are custom items so they still carry more value.
The only 2 big "issues" I could see is that the leaderboards will have like 10's of thousands of rebirths which may be a turnoff for a new player that wants to compete for that top spot, but in my own opinion this would actually attract those players that want to get high rebirth counts. I was that person at one point and when I looked for servers I looked at the leaderboard to see what the rebirth counts were looking like. I joined dchaos at first because I saw someone (yes probably you pimppi) with like 20k rebirths or something, not entirely sure what it was but it was ridiculous.
The second problem that I guess could happen is that fiesta wouldn't carry any value and no one would participate as Khaos mobs would give more than enough experience. So how about instead of giving them MORE health than other mobs we give fiesta slimes LESS health so that it's used by newer players. This will work especially well with the nerf of heaven's hammer. That way the event is still used by some players while the ones grinding out rebirths have their own place to do it in.
tl;dr consider keeping (and enhancing) the fast rebirth system to attract those rebirth junkies since it won't hurt the non-grinding players
I may have skipped something but oh well. I just woke up and felt like finally posting this.
- MrPimppi
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Re: The Rebirth System
by MrPimppi Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:42 pm
wait isn't there already non nx 30k all stat rings?i thought they were in @dchaos?
- Fate
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Re: The Rebirth System
by Fate Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:51 pm
I mean non ring 30k all stat. Meaning you get all 8 rings (4 cash and 4 non cash) and trade them in to create one, probably non-nx, regular equip. That way it's not even any item they want, its some predetermined level 0 all class equip or something that they can equip nx over. Its just for people that want like over 600k stats without donating but will spend hours upon hours getting like 20,000 rebirths.
- MrPimppi
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Re: The Rebirth System
by MrPimppi Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:15 am
ah i must of miss read or something Xd
this seems like a good idea but that a big trade off for a 30k all stat item
and to lose all 8 of your rings for 1 item is gonna hurt
your essentially trading 960 reborns and its stats for 30k all stat item
seems like a heavy trade off but it could work to keep the oped ness down
but eventually someone will break past that limit of 9 items and you will need to keep introducing more items why not just make a whole noob set while your doing it
don't get me wrong eventually someone will even get past that limit
i mean its only 8k rbs and you have a full set not even a lot of rebirths just sayin but i like the idea just kinda big trade off
it almost sounds like an msi / srb maker
this seems like a good idea but that a big trade off for a 30k all stat item
and to lose all 8 of your rings for 1 item is gonna hurt
your essentially trading 960 reborns and its stats for 30k all stat item
seems like a heavy trade off but it could work to keep the oped ness down
but eventually someone will break past that limit of 9 items and you will need to keep introducing more items why not just make a whole noob set while your doing it
don't get me wrong eventually someone will even get past that limit
i mean its only 8k rbs and you have a full set not even a lot of rebirths just sayin but i like the idea just kinda big trade off
it almost sounds like an msi / srb maker
- Fate
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Re: The Rebirth System
by Fate Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:40 pm
My reasoning is that if someone, especially in the early stages of the revival of the server, is willing to play that many hours and get that many rebirths, they kind of deserve to be OP. Them playing the server helps to populate it. This is the biggest factor.
This system will be giving them something to do other than rebirth like crazy then sit in the fm after roughly 800-1000 rebirths and do absolutely nothing. Like Aniki, who just started giving away srb rings simply because he could. Kinda ruins the whole system right there, but what else are you supposed to do with your stats at that point. This gives high rebirth players something to do while also making it a trade of power so that normal, non-grindy players won't feel too far behind them until 8000 or so rebirths, which they should feel weaker than honestly.
And if by "only 8k rebirths" you mean "only 200-300 hours of constant training" and that's being generous, then yes, only 8k rebirths. And that's not even factoring in the nerf to heaven's hammer, which would probably add 100 hours or more since you need dragon fury to 1 shot in khaos for any sort of training that will be that efficient.
And it gives something that is worth almost 1000 rebirths to these players, which if they somehow got a full set of, they could sell for a large amount of wizcoins seeing as they are items with so many hours of playtime put into.
It's just a ton of positives with seemingly no negatives other than "wow the players are too op" or "this player is just giving away their all stat armor" which is highly unlikely that they'll get enough to really destroy the system.
Put this in so that high rebirth count players will stay around, especially with the low player count we have currently. This way the server will naturally grow.
This system will be giving them something to do other than rebirth like crazy then sit in the fm after roughly 800-1000 rebirths and do absolutely nothing. Like Aniki, who just started giving away srb rings simply because he could. Kinda ruins the whole system right there, but what else are you supposed to do with your stats at that point. This gives high rebirth players something to do while also making it a trade of power so that normal, non-grindy players won't feel too far behind them until 8000 or so rebirths, which they should feel weaker than honestly.
And if by "only 8k rebirths" you mean "only 200-300 hours of constant training" and that's being generous, then yes, only 8k rebirths. And that's not even factoring in the nerf to heaven's hammer, which would probably add 100 hours or more since you need dragon fury to 1 shot in khaos for any sort of training that will be that efficient.
And it gives something that is worth almost 1000 rebirths to these players, which if they somehow got a full set of, they could sell for a large amount of wizcoins seeing as they are items with so many hours of playtime put into.
It's just a ton of positives with seemingly no negatives other than "wow the players are too op" or "this player is just giving away their all stat armor" which is highly unlikely that they'll get enough to really destroy the system.
Put this in so that high rebirth count players will stay around, especially with the low player count we have currently. This way the server will naturally grow.
- Ἒṝḯḉ
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Re: The Rebirth System
by Ἒṝḯḉ Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:14 pm
i like this idea actually. I do agree, the way everything has always been handled here was quite poor. After a few rebirths you're able to kill at Khaos and just constantly rebirth yet gain nothing. I always wanted to add a challenge to the server, but I faced the fact that nobody here wanted challenge (I had seen so after I created the Facebook poll for the rates and everyone chose 2k).
I had original plans for this when we first opened where after a certain amount of rebirths you'd have MSI npc's of different towns for different types of items. Each NPC in each town will have a set of "quest" items (gained through bosses and mobs throughout the game) some with low drop rate chances and some with high. Some would also require different counts of rebirths. This would end up making players grind for things rather than getting it fast and easy.
However, it seems most of the users who play this game only play it because of how easy it is :/
EDIT: I wouldn't mind implementing extra custom quests and such to give the game some challenge, however I only plan to do a lot of this after I've finished most of the source's core features.
I had original plans for this when we first opened where after a certain amount of rebirths you'd have MSI npc's of different towns for different types of items. Each NPC in each town will have a set of "quest" items (gained through bosses and mobs throughout the game) some with low drop rate chances and some with high. Some would also require different counts of rebirths. This would end up making players grind for things rather than getting it fast and easy.
However, it seems most of the users who play this game only play it because of how easy it is :/
EDIT: I wouldn't mind implementing extra custom quests and such to give the game some challenge, however I only plan to do a lot of this after I've finished most of the source's core features.
- Fate
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Re: The Rebirth System
by Fate Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:19 pm
The main thing about this though is will Khaos mobs get their super high exp reward back if you do end up doing some high rebirth system like that. Since without that there isn't any "stable" way to get high rebirths.
- Beat
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Re: The Rebirth System
by Beat Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:04 pm
I almost completely agree with you. My only criticism would be that, as Pimppi has stated, it would be a big trade-off. To me, it's essentially like taking weeks to perfect a sword only to have it be smelted in order to make one good chest piece that's only as strong as when you first started swinging the sword at trees.
I don't want to have you read a wall of text to have to get my point. Basically what I'm saying is that it's already long enough as is to become that strong considering some people such as myself either have other things to do or have other games they want to play. But I don't want it to be easy. I wouldn't mind if there were mobs or some form of event/quest to assist in the endeavor. Right now, there are only like two effective ways to rebirth. Both are long and boring. If this were done now I would not be a happy person. Constantly going back and forth between FMs to get rebirths while I just sit and watch something is exhausting. Adding a twist or an incentive to it would make me actually WANT to do it.
I don't want to have you read a wall of text to have to get my point. Basically what I'm saying is that it's already long enough as is to become that strong considering some people such as myself either have other things to do or have other games they want to play. But I don't want it to be easy. I wouldn't mind if there were mobs or some form of event/quest to assist in the endeavor. Right now, there are only like two effective ways to rebirth. Both are long and boring. If this were done now I would not be a happy person. Constantly going back and forth between FMs to get rebirths while I just sit and watch something is exhausting. Adding a twist or an incentive to it would make me actually WANT to do it.
- Fate
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Re: The Rebirth System
by Fate Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:15 pm
Well if a different system were put in place (hopefully) Khaos mobs would be buffed back to their original rewards. Those mobs, with the right skills and stats, could give you a rebirth in 30 seconds or so. So then it's just a matter of grinding. You need maybe 6 or more super rebirth rings to get that super fast rebirth time though, which is why you need the trade off. Without the huge drop in power people will just be hitting full equip by maybe 3000 rebirths or less because they'll be so strong. Which is also the issue I have with the quest system for drops. Without giving up some sort of power, I could go grind the drops out in a matter of hours and boom have one of the items. And other servers use these "get x drop to create an msi + meso + currency" so it's not unique. This also makes rebirthing entirely pointless after maybe 900 since those stats won't go to anything. And 120k stats coming from just picking up some drops seems a little ridiculous.
Maybe combining the two so that it's less of a drop off while also requiring time to "craft" this new msi armor piece. Maybe an "x drop(s) + y drop(s) + z wiz coins + 4 super rebirth rings" quest to craft whatever armor piece. That way people still have to hit relatively high rebirth counts to get strong while also doing new things. Maybe make the quests custom at some point (as in custom mobs or whatever) so then there is more custom content along with a very different thing to do compared to a gms quest or just racking up rebirths.
There could also be events that help out lower rebirth count players so that they can grind a bit less compared to the higher count players. How this will be done is beyond me as I don't know what the server is actually capable of doing in the side of custom coded events. If it could check rebirth count for like "200 or less rebirths" then make the mobs similar to fiesta but with less hp. Just an idea that would theoretically work, as long as rebirths are treated as a value and not just an updated text for @spy to display.
You have to keep in mind that it has to be rather difficult to do because this will make these players on par with a donator's strength, reducing the reward for donating. Which is the last thing we want to do.
Maybe combining the two so that it's less of a drop off while also requiring time to "craft" this new msi armor piece. Maybe an "x drop(s) + y drop(s) + z wiz coins + 4 super rebirth rings" quest to craft whatever armor piece. That way people still have to hit relatively high rebirth counts to get strong while also doing new things. Maybe make the quests custom at some point (as in custom mobs or whatever) so then there is more custom content along with a very different thing to do compared to a gms quest or just racking up rebirths.
There could also be events that help out lower rebirth count players so that they can grind a bit less compared to the higher count players. How this will be done is beyond me as I don't know what the server is actually capable of doing in the side of custom coded events. If it could check rebirth count for like "200 or less rebirths" then make the mobs similar to fiesta but with less hp. Just an idea that would theoretically work, as long as rebirths are treated as a value and not just an updated text for @spy to display.
You have to keep in mind that it has to be rather difficult to do because this will make these players on par with a donator's strength, reducing the reward for donating. Which is the last thing we want to do.
- Beat
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Re: The Rebirth System
by Beat Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:01 pm
Yeah, that's sounds good to me. Making it something you'd either really need to work towards or fork over some cash to support yourself and the server. Make it something interesting or fun to work towards. Otherwise no one will want to do it besides people that do it merely to get strong or for shits and giggles.
- Fate
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Re: The Rebirth System
by Fate Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:46 pm
That's kinda the purpose though? It's meant for people that want to spend their time achieving it, not for anyone that feels like it. I think it should be non-nx items only so then it's not even giving out customs or something. It's literally a system for people that want to do something with their ap and be stronger.Beat wrote:Otherwise no one will want to do it besides people that do it merely to get strong or for shits and giggles.
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